Open Letter to Imageyenation
*The views expressed in the following editorial belong solely to the author, and are not necessarily the views of Palms Out Sounds.
Firstly, I would like to encourage all of you to check out the Remix Sunday 37 tracks in the post below before or after reading this, it was not my intention to post over Haldan’s choice selections so quickly, and they’re some good ones. The Jay-Z remix and Duran Duran joints are particularly dope. However, I felt it was necessary to promptly address a briefly touched upon but immensely significant point raised just recently on our site. To say that we get blatantly ignorant and reprehensible comments on posts all the time is a bit dramatic, but it does happen on occasion and I generally tend to ignore them. But in this particular instance, we received what I perceive to be the most unintentionally backhanded complimentary comment i’ve ever seen (made in response to this post), and I believe its author thought he was making this comment in good faith- a fact that only amplified the ignorance that leaped out at me as I was reading.
I applaud you for this one. I don’t read hip-hop blogs ( you guys are about as much a hip-hop blog as my blog is, so I don’t count you ) and have stopped frequenting certain hip-hop forums because of this type of shit. It’s a constant thing. I’f it’s not “oh that’s gay,” or “oh that’s some fag shit,” it’s just “nigga, nigga, nigga” constantly. And whether you believe that “oh it’s a term of endearment” shit or not the fact is that when these terms are bandied about it doesn’t take the sting out of them, it just removes context and makes our whole society and culture more hateful. I’ve gotten into arguments with people over this and thier defence is usually to say I’m “wack” or to call me a “faggot.” One dude actually had the nerve to say when he says “oh that’s gay” he doesn’t mean homosexual and that the word “gay” doesn’t even mean “homosexual.” I could only say “yeah, ’cause when you called that record you didn’t like gay what you were really saying was that it’s happy… right.” It’s out of hand and people don’t even want to see the hate that’s in them. It’s not like I’m saying you have to live without hate or prejudice or that you have to over-analyse everything you say, just own up to your own thoughts and actions and reflect on them once in a while. I’m glad to see somebody else stand up and speak about this. -El Keter ben Tzadik (scheme emphasis)
Placing derogatory words used towards homosexuals (*from someone outside of the gay community*) and “nigga” in the same context is a grossly inaccurate comparison, and serves no purpose in terms of enhancing your point. Whether or not you believe the whole term of endearment shit, as you so eloquently put it- that’s neither here nor there. The fact remains that you mentioned a hateful word that in the specific examples cited by yourself and the author of the post, is still being used in a hateful context vs. a word with historically hateful connotation that has been reclaimed and has clearly morphed in meaning to the community (in part, not in its entirety) that was once it’s victim over the ages. Despite your sharply dismissive and condescending tone, the n-word has become a term of endearment for many. Whether or not you think this is right my friend, is another issue entirely. Now I would seriously like to know the true reason as to why you chose to make the comparison of people saying “that’s some faggot shit” and “nigga nigga nigga” (it appears people are saying it in threes now- astonishing!). Do you feel left out when you read the proverbial “nigga nigga niggas?” Do the niggas make you uncomfortable when doing so? I would again like to know the reason as to why you chose to make this invalid comparison, and why you felt that the particular manner in which you articulated this very comparison was appropriate or in any way acceptable.
If what you meant to say was that seeing the n-word, in any manifestation, makes you uncomfortable, and the word still conjures thoughts of hate and bigotry and you would rather not frequent internet resources where such manifestations frequently occur- I would understand. I would disagree, and would still think you were off point in your deduction, and would still remain steadfast in my belief that your particular feelings about the big bad n-word still wouldn’t quite fit with the rest of your post or the topic at hand…but I would understand. However, “saying” (as much as anything can be “said” on the internet) the very word which you’re apparently condemning as ignorant and thoughtless in a sardonic and mocking manner rubs me the wrong way, to put it mildly, and I would hope you see the error in your phrasing. If the history of hateful society and culture is informing your current perspective, then surely you understand the shameful history of minstrelsy and other methods in which behavior by African-Americans was terribly exaggerated and openly mocked. Surely you will take great care and exhibit more responsibility when making commentary in the future, being the owner of a website and by default an individual who is influencing the views of people worldwide.
Furthermore, whether or not you choose to identify Palms Out as such, this is a hip-hop blog. It is much more, indeed, but the shit we do is very much hip-hop. Thinking, criticizing, bullshitting, analyzing, praising, hating, speculating, stylin’, listening intently, sharing- this is hip-hop. I don’t know what you’re used to seeing on television or the mythical forums with which you’re obtaining your knowledge base to categorize from, but this all goes down here, and on the regular.
Also, there seemed to implicitly be some contempt on your part held towards hip-hop blogs/sites/forums due to their lack of intellectual discourse. I would venture to say that if you happen to periodically check editorials on allhiphop.com, some posts on the okayplayer boards or the knowtheledge forum on sohh.com, you actually might maybe possibly learn something! From true blue undeniable hip-hop sites that have something valuable to offer!
Whodathunkit
11:34 am on November 13th, 2006
hahahahaha! he was complimenting y’all! plus besides, you’re doing all the things you critisize. this post is mad dissapointing palms out.
-danielle
12:34 pm on November 13th, 2006
this post is like a textbook definition of how to discourage people from commenting at your blog.
1:59 pm on November 13th, 2006
I have to say I see both Scheme’s point and the person who wrote that post.
First, of all this is the Palms out Sounds site they have the right to say what they want. Also shouldn’t this site like other blogs create discussion/argument? Isn’t that how creative minds heighten conversation?
I feel that the N-Word is used too often in our music and society also. Yet, an artist does have the free will to use it as he/she wants. I think using the word in a more positive way to show what a nigger/nigga might be is more productive(i.e. Niggars by The Last Poets).
For those who feel Scheme is outta line I ask Why? Doesn’t he as a person have the right to rebuttle this other person’s comment? Some are so quick to judge others for what they say yet forget our first amendment right of freedom of speech. I think those think negatively of Schemes post need to go back and read it.
2:07 pm on November 13th, 2006
gotta say… i’ve lost some respect for POS because of this rebuttal. i’ve always viewed the POS staff to have a little more clarity…
…and yes, one has every right to freedom of speech just as we have the freedom to absorb, react, respond, remember, and judge from one’s speech and views.
-tk
2:11 pm on November 13th, 2006
Why are people rendered so impotent by flattery? White people who says things like “Wow, I didn’t know you washed your hair so often” or, my favorite and most delightfully cliche, “s/he speaks so well for a [insert brown background here] kid” mean them as compliments. Of course, we should always be gracious enough to accept credit given to us. But why is it that we feel unable to reject the compliments that make us feel misunderstood or uncomfortable? Personally, I would have stopped reading at the first parenthetical statement (“ you guys are about as much a hip-hop blog as my blog is, so I don’t count you”) – but that’s me. “Nigga” and “faggot” are two very, very, very different terms – I don’t even feel the need to explain or defend that. My point is this: whether it’s enveloped in flattery or not, ignorance is ignorance and should be regarded as such. Not every ‘compliment’ should leave us weak in the knees, and certainly not weak in our ability to place our awareness over our vanity. -vpl
2:12 pm on November 13th, 2006
rafi – way too muster up the courage to post a comment. you brave little toaster you.
danielle…danielle danielle DAN YELL – your comment was embarrassing. not ’cause you disagreed with the post .. ’cause of how half-assed and unsmart you come across.
now you two…go outside but don’t make any babies.
3:23 pm on November 13th, 2006
is this the view of palms out, “the collective”? cuz f’real – in all the time i’ve been reading – i’ve never known you guys to write with such anger. it’s not that i disagree with your point about backhanded racism, it’s just that this doesnt seem to really address that issue as much as it makes Keter seem like a bad guy. if that’s the point of this post, to make him feel bad, then well done. not much of a concept, but…
otherwise, i’d say this is not a particularly well written argument. more of a random rant. oh, and why does this merit a totally new post? it wouldnt fit in the comment section or something?
J
3:45 pm on November 13th, 2006
“Also, there seemed to implicitly be some contempt on your part held towards hip-hop blogs/sites/forums due to their lack of intellectual discourse. I would venture to say that if you happen to periodically check editorials on allhiphop.com, some posts on the okayplayer boards or the knowtheledge forum on sohh.com, you actually might maybe possibly learn something! From true blue undeniable hip-hop sites that have something valuable to offer!”
what? as far as I remember, keter used to be all OVER those ughh forums, or maybe it was another one of those sites… I guess is was surprising to see that he didnt read hiphop sites, but in my opinion imageyenation is just as much a hiphop site as pos, if not more.
So not only do I disagree with scheme’s choice to mention that part of the original comment(it seems to be there only to demonize Keter more than he was already), but also with the original comment. you read hiphop sites keter!
3:58 pm on November 13th, 2006
ahhhh, all the anger! what happened to palms out?!
4:02 pm on November 13th, 2006
whack whack whack.
4:34 pm on November 13th, 2006
Zach ( iforgot my password and can’t respond as a blogger)
i wrote the post Broken Glass and my intention was to address the ways in hate wades right below the surface of our social consciousness and what happens when a moment breaks our constructed barriers and reveals something about bad about ourselves- it seems that may be whats has happened here, there were responses to my post that i both didn’t understand or agree with however, i can learn much more about the problem when i can hear the other side speak than simply hearing from those like myself. Although, i agree with much of what Scheme wrote often delievery and voice are as important as message. Allienation is greatest foil we as can create when trying engage in dialouge, all voices must be welcomed. I hope this continues enviorment in which we can speak genuinly or we will move deeper into the orginal issue of hidden or anger or discomofrt behind a mask of resentful tolerance.
4:37 pm on November 13th, 2006
sorry about the terrible grammer, i am trying to look like i’m working
4:46 pm on November 13th, 2006
I once enjoyed your blog, that is until I found out that YOU enjoy having warm, gooey, sperm shot into your asshole. I will forever hate and condemn you and your gay ass blog.
5:51 pm on November 13th, 2006
wow…i would like to thank those who read and respond thoughfully, often the issues at hand are very subtle. In this case i find myself confused and disappointed. I am tall white straight male(holla ladies) i don’t deal with much stuctural oopresion nor am i encourged by soicty to give it much thought. In fact i benfit from my born statuts and tempts me to embrace it a means of my success through other oppresion. However i was raised to treat people as indviduals and judge them by their qualties not their skin, gender or life style. When i talk about racial issues and african american oopresion i am labeled a wigger,beleive that gays deserve the same rights i take for granted everyday and suddenly labeled a fag , when talk turns to poltical reform I am anti american or unappreciative of my fortune, defend womens rights and and be a pussy. It confuses people to stand up for someone who is differnt in some way. The ignorance of others can not stop us from believing in what is right, and is right is striving for equality. i am sorry this all became so ugly i appreciate palmsout for letting me write and all the people respond genuinly lets not squander or good fortune.
7:05 pm on November 13th, 2006
I gotta admit…
i kinda feel Scheme on this one. It sounded like dude was saying “hip hop aint so good, but ur not really hip hop, so you’re cool” More so than a compliment, i feel like Imageyenation’s comment was an underhanded slap in the face. It was reminiscent of a “you’re cute for a dark skinned girl” statement…i can’t f**k with it. BUT…
i think Scheme responded out of anger rather than his usual wry sarcastic manner. Correct me if i’m wrong Scheme, but i don’t picture a smile on your face while writing this. I can’t really be mad tho…if someone attacked my identity like that, it’d be a serious matter.
8:01 pm on November 13th, 2006
ha jm,
sorry am i not allowed to comment because i just discovered this blog?
look my point is this guy writes a comment not complimenting (wtf) but agreeing/supporting the initial post. he says that he’s had to stop frequenting hip-hop sites because the commonality of this bothers him so he’s happy to see someone else stand up on this issue and you act like he’s saying some anti-hip-hop diatribe.
imageyenation covers plenty of hip-hop – dude feels love and hate for hip-hop… that doesn’t sound familiar to any of you?? despite what keter says, imageyenation is clearly at least half-way a hip-hop blog and it’s not like that should be news to you – it’s on your blogroll.
on the n-word, does this guy deserve to get condemned because he doesn’t approve of any hateful speech and you choose to approve of some? do you feel the same way about all the white kids on hip-hop sites and forums tossing the word around?
I’m just saying of all the battles to pick, was this really a wise one? Even if you took issue with what he said while he applauded the stand of your site couldn’t you have replied in the comments?
And it’s not like the original post didn’t somewhat conflate racism and homophobia (see comic and references to ghetto party). And why shouldn’t it? For all their differences, yes they are also related under the big beach umbrella of hate.
8:03 pm on November 13th, 2006
p.s. fuck all those shitty hip-hop sites you named! :-)
that’s real.
8:15 pm on November 13th, 2006
ain’t a damn thing wrong with being angry & right, Scheme. -vpl
8:34 pm on November 13th, 2006
You asked…
“Now I would seriously like to know the true reason as to why you chose to make the comparison of people saying “that’s some faggot shit” and “nigga nigga nigga” (it appears people are saying it in threes now- astonishing!). Do you feel left out when you read the proverbial “nigga nigga niggas?” Do the niggas make you uncomfortable when doing so? I would again like to know the reason as to why you chose to make this invalid comparison, and why you felt that the particular manner in which you articulated this very comparison was appropriate or in any way acceptable.”
It’s an acceptable comparison because they’re both forms of hate speech. Whether you use “nigga” as a tearm of endearment for your friends or not it’s still hate speech and the word is still hateful. You may have adopted the word, but you haven’t taken the hate out of it. And I would argue that the adoption of the word as a tearm of endearment ( just as Gays have adopted words like “fag” and “queer” ) has less to do with stripping it of it’s hateful context than it does with lessening the shock factor the words have when used by hateful people in an unmistakably hateful way. The only difference is that a word like “nigga,” which at it’s root means “ignorant person,” is hateful under any circumstances because of what it means. “Gay” and “faggot” at least have a non-offensive connotation under certain circumstances. Nigger will always be “an ignorant person.” It’s sort of like calling your friend “bastard” or “motherfucker.” Sure you might use it in an offhanded way and not mean to offend, but you know what it really means and how hateful it really is. No matter what you do you will never be able to remove the hate and negativity from a word like nigger no matter how often or how nonchalantly you use it. Besides, I think I already answered this in my original comment…
“…when these terms are bandied about it doesn’t take the sting out of them, it just removes context and makes our whole society and culture more hateful.”
There’s no context of love, brotherhood, affection or endearment when 20 threads on a message or every comment on a blog board have a hateful word in the title or are packed with mean spirited hate-speech. When everything everyone says is hateful shit peppered with hateful words… “fuck you nigga,” “you fag,” “don’t be such a jew,” etc, it’s hard to find it endearing in any sense.
Any speech can be acceptable, even if it still has the potential to be offensive, in certain context. But there’s a distict lack of context in most of the situations I’m referencing. It’s just hate. It’s self hate. It’s hate of the other. It’s hate of love. It’s hate of positvity. It’s hate for the sake of hate, often without thought. And it’s a visual representation of how ingrained hate is in our society and how it continues to divide us all.
As for talking up the intellectual quality of AHH and OKP… just… HA! And yes, that was hate.
8:46 pm on November 13th, 2006
Oh, and for the record, I think that for the most part hip-hop fans, hip-hop journalists, hip-hop bloggers and people who make hip-hop their end all be all sort of suck. They’re the first people to say “oh that’s not hip-hop” or “get that fag shit outta here.” When we all know that there wouldn’t be a hip-hop if motherfuckers didn’t play records that definitely weren’t hip-hop and make them hip-hop. You may live you life as the most hip-hoppin’-est motherfucker out here, but Palms Out covers a lot of shit. And it’s not necessarily hip-hop. You might filter it through your perspective, which as a person who grew up in the hip-hop era is largely informed by hip-hop, but that’s not all you’re about. It’s one of the things I appreciate about Palms Out. You don’t cover the same shit. And while in my opinion that’s way more “hip-hop” ( in the tradition of the founding fathers of the art ) than most “traditional” hip-hop sites, it doesn’t fit the accepted mold of what most people seem to want hip-hop to be today.
You guys just cover way too much “fag shit” to be hip-hop.
And that was context.
11:53 pm on November 13th, 2006
Wow… i agree with scheme…all i have to say is that Mr. El Keter ben Tzadik is coming off as a straight hater and to say that Palms Out is covering too much “fag shit to be considered Hip-Hop” is just plain stupid and ignorant. If anything partner, Palms Out is helping to expand the scope of Hip Hop to include more than what your use too.
In terms of the N-word, i mean grow up. This is 2006 and it is not the first time you’ve seen the word and it wont be the last. It has both positive and negative meanings which depend 100% in the context in which it is used. Because we have black people have chosen to rise above the negative connotation, have taking the negative meaning that was assigned to it and twisted it around to now even mean something positive or have no meaning at all, now if that isnt taking power away from (yea im gonna say it), white people then i dont know what is.
12:02 am on November 14th, 2006
‘The fact remains that you mentioned a hateful word that in the specific examples cited by yourself and the author of the post, is still being used in a hateful context vs. a word with historically hateful connotation that has been reclaimed and has clearly morphed in meaning to the community (in part, not in its entirety) that was once it’s victim over the ages.’
-
how come nobody brought up the issue, that on the internet, you don’t know what race someone might be? so when some one says ‘nigga’ on a forum post or blog comment, they could easily be white- and not a black person ‘reclaiming’ the term. wouldnt that, by your definition, mean that the word was being used in a hateful context to some degree? or by the same token, would this mean that as long as the word fag is used by homosexuals, that it’s no longer a hateful word? or that it isnt a word that also has morphed in meaning to the community? (its literal meaning is ‘bundle of sticks’ for those who don’t know)
didn’t zach, in the original post first reference the internet as a place where people could express their hate without fear of being exposed? so wouldn’t that- and the fact that you have no idea what color somebody’s skin is over the internet even if they tell you- mean that all slurs(reclaimed or not) would be up for grabs? I could say that I’m a straight asian female, which I’m not. But how do you know? I could say to people in public “I’m a nigger kike faggot” which would be the truth on some level- and then say, “no, it’s okay… I’m black, and my mother’s mother was a jew, and I love boys- so i claim all these words reclaimed.”
all of these words are still being used in hateful contexts. you city niggas don’t know how good you have it, especially you straight ones. thinking that nigger is a fixed word, all fine and dandy, as long as only we say it. or that saying fag is all good especially if you arent reffering to homosexuality. i’m gay and i reclaim ‘faggot’ then none of you straight motherfuckers can say it. since i dont know who on the internet is gay, no one can say it! or maybe everyone can say it. well at least nigga is okay to throw around the web.
3:42 am on November 14th, 2006
I’m about to make a new post, but I think saying something here before moving forward is necessary.
I don’t really know where to start, so I’ll just start by stating my intention, which is simply to respectfully acknowledge the conversation that has taken place here as significant, and as a strong indicator of just how strong the pos community is. Whether or not you agreed with my post, I appreciate anyone who took the time to not only read it but to make a thoughtful response to my statement. My only regret lies in the fact that I did not make it exceedingly clear from the beginning that my statement was just that, my statement, and not meant to represent pos on a whole, nor meant to attack imageyenation on a whole. To those mistakes, I concede. In all other points I raised, I maintain my opinion, and I don’t really have much more to add that hasn’t already been stated by myself or some of the people who commented above (most poignantly, by the one who identifies his/herself as “vpl”). However, I encourage all to continue the conversation, both in this venue and within your personal lives. Growth will not occur without a thoughtful exchange of ideas. Whoever said that my post would discourage readers to comment must see now that this is clearly not the case, and that the majority of readers of this blog are some of the most well informed, well intentioned and intelligent people on the net, and for that, I’m grateful. Thank you again to everyone who read and/or posted, whether in my defense or in strong disagreement, your thoughts are appreciated, and taken seriously.
In peace & solidarity
Shaun ‘Scheme’ Redwood
4:23 am on November 14th, 2006
scheme man u one eloquent motherfucker!!ps. lovin the blog man
1:56 pm on November 14th, 2006
Oh snap!
If anyone is interested, you might want to check out publications from Jared Sexton. My girlfriend was floored by him. He’s pretty amazing. I don’t know all the details, but he was teaching Critical Theory in the context of African American Studies. Very enlightening.
11:46 pm on November 14th, 2006
Well whiteness as an identity was based on the mythical construction of what it was not:it was not black, homosexual, female, or child. Whitness was masculine, rational, Christian & heterosexual. The cross sections of gender, sexuality & race cannot be divorced from one another because historically white supremacy denigrated weak gendered & libidinal characteristics to race. To address a term such as the n-word, one must consider sexuality & gender
8:55 pm on November 15th, 2006
I think someone could make a pretty convincing argument that the slur “nigger” (with a hard r) and “faggot” are comparable, but not necessarilly equivalent. They’re used in different ways: the n-word is used to very directly target and degrade African-Americans. Slurs against homosexuals like “faggot” and “gay” can be used in this way against homosexuals, but I feel like that’s not the use being addressed here. What we’re talking about is calling someone a “faggot” or “gay” to imply that he is less of a man. It’s not exactly a direct slur. But to imply that “nigga” and “faggot” are equivalent is just ignorant. A more apt comparison might be “nigga” and “queer,” which the homosexual community have reclaimed as a term of empowerment and identity.
Either way, Palms Out is hip-hop, no doubt. Keep rock-rockin’.
7:00 pm on November 17th, 2006
This is a successful post in my opinion… it got all of you reading and talking. as far as Schemes emotions, he is entitled to them… You can’t condemn a whole website for what one person thinks. It almost seems like half of the people on this blog are scared of what other people think lol… stop lashing out at each other and actually discuss something.
3:03 am on November 18th, 2006
I’m an aussie and we find political correctness a horrible and degrading invention. While superficially it brings us closer, it may indeed tear us apart. By erecting walls and towers between us (ie. whats permissible, whats ‘politically correct’), its harder to connect. Its never the use of words that is of material significance, but the emotional background that informs them. Nigga can be used with spite and with love. By the same token african american can be distant, cold and degrading. Here’s a thought: Any system of rules imposed extraneously to a discourse will never serve the intention of bringing its members closer. Its a schoolboy mistake. I love America, but the truth is, I am afraid to go there again. Forced politeness is so much more insulting that honest rudeness. I can fight my own wars. I don’t need some douche in an ivory tower forcing others to address me nicely. We’re not childeren anymore.
Love always,
your fag downunder
8:36 pm on November 20th, 2006
interesting point you make… when i came to Canada from Europe, i struggled alot with whether I am insulted by fake politeness or not. I think i will struggle with it till the day that i die lol…
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